Tuesday, October 24, 2006
Suggestion Box for New Topics
Please post your suggestions for new topic threads in the comments section of this thread. Not every suggestion will necessarily result in a new thread, but I'll try to include as many topics as may be relevant.
Are Holy Land Tours a Shearing of the Sheep?
From the original BBC Open Forum:
Are Pastors acting as tour hosts making large amounts of money off Holy Land and other travel tour trips?
I always assumed the Pastor and his wife traveled for free on these trips and the participants paid extra to cover this. It never occured to me that Clergy (it is not just the Baptists) may be making tens of thousands of dollars per trip. Now if all of this extra markup and income for the tour host has been fully disclosed then the sheep were knowingly fleeced I suppose. But if people unknowingly lined the pockets of a tour host it stikes me as stealing. If it is disclosed that the host got a free trip, but not that he also got a fat check then that too is stealing.
It is using your position and influence to secretly line your pockets off your congregation.
Do a Google search on "Holy Land Tours Host benefits" and you can quickly see this is a common practice among Holy Land Tour companies. Some offer one free trip (or cash payout) for each three trips purchased while other tour operators ask that you call them for information.
Holy Land Tours used to mention they will issue the host an IRS form 1099, which means at least some hosts are taking money in lieu of giving tickets away to "worthy guests." Holy Land Tours offers a 1 free tour for 5, 10, 15 benefit. Apparently it is up to the Pastor to decide how badly to shear his sheep. Interestingly, the link to that information, "Host a Group & Earn Free Travel," no longer works. Perhaps the sheep were getting wise to what's happening.
Ed Hill Tours, Inc. explains the tour host benefits on their about us page.
"Ed Hill Tours offers you One Free Tour for every five full-paying passengers you enroll and up to $450 (depending on the tour cost) for each full-paying passenger not used toward a free tour. You will be paid all earned benefits prior to departure on all passengers who have paid in full for the tour including any optional programs."
Interestingly Ed Hill Tours has had people ask them about how cheap their trips are.
"We've have (sic) actually had people question how our tours could offer so much when they see many tours priced at hundreds of dollars more than ours."
Could the answer be that other hosts are even greedier than Ed Hill hosts?
IGM Tours says on their web site,
"The price of a tour is affected by departure date (winter season is the least expensive), hotel quality, meal plan, choice of airline, single or multiple destinations, group size, religious holidays, and the selected host benefits.
It appears to be standard practice.
I ask you, if you were organizing a trip for your family and friends or even for your company at work, would you gouge them? How can any minister even contemplate doing something like this even if there is full disclosure? We are talking about a potential overcharge of $37,000, which could balloon to $50,000. Remember, this is just ONE trip. The host and wife travelling for free is understandable. Beyond that why not give the participants a price break as more people sign up? What ever happened to volume discounts as more people signed up?
A quick Google shows this is a pervasive problem in the "Holy Land" tour business. What a shame for all that have secretly fleeced their flocks.
Update: I should have mentioned this post is about more than just what is going on at BBC, and that a deacon of Bellevue has informed us in a prior thread comment section (see comment posted 8:25 PM, October 19, 2006) that Dr. Gaines "assured me that he will in no way be pocketing any money from this trip." I take this to mean Dr. Gaines will not keep any cash for himself as a result of this surcharge. This much money deserves a full accounting and disclosure from the travel company that details exactly who got what. A person not pocketing any money will have no problem releasing a full accounting.
posted by BBC Open Forum at 12:53 PM on Oct 22 2006
Update 2: Dehoney Travel Letter listing host benefits
A Joking Matter?
From the original BBC Open Forum:
Dr. Gaines 9-25-06 in Union city - one day after the information meeting. Listen.
We sat everybody down, said 'This is not a business meeting. It's an information meeting.' What that meant is we're gonna talk. Heh heh. But you're not. Heh heh heh heh. {audience laughs} Amen, huh? Ha ha. I didn't just fall off the cabbage truck. Amen. I'm not... ha ha. I've been around this for a long time. Amen." {audience laughs}
Did the Pastor belittle members of his congregation?
Is it acceptable to joke like this?
Are concerns which have been expressed to the staff being taken seriously?
Is this no big deal?
If you wish to offer an opinion on this thread please remember that regardless of your point of view, you can be polite and respectful towards others.
posted by BBC Open Forum at 1:51 PM on Oct 20 2006
Dr. Gaines 9-25-06 in Union city - one day after the information meeting. Listen.
We sat everybody down, said 'This is not a business meeting. It's an information meeting.' What that meant is we're gonna talk. Heh heh. But you're not. Heh heh heh heh. {audience laughs} Amen, huh? Ha ha. I didn't just fall off the cabbage truck. Amen. I'm not... ha ha. I've been around this for a long time. Amen." {audience laughs}
Did the Pastor belittle members of his congregation?
Is it acceptable to joke like this?
Are concerns which have been expressed to the staff being taken seriously?
Is this no big deal?
If you wish to offer an opinion on this thread please remember that regardless of your point of view, you can be polite and respectful towards others.
posted by BBC Open Forum at 1:51 PM on Oct 20 2006
Communications Committee Formed
From the original BBC Open Forum:
Post your thoughts and suggestions on how the committee should organize and present information. Questions that you think the committee should address can also be posted.
An ad hoc Communications Committee of 10 deacons and two staff members has been formed to address issues and answer questions from the church family. This committee was recommended by the deacon officers, approved by the Pastor, affirmed by the deacon body, and presented to the church family last Sunday (October 8th) following the evening Worship Service. This committee is currently organizing and in the near future will present information on how it will function.
If you wish to offer an opinion please remember that regardless of your point of view, you can be polite and respectful towards others.
UPDATE: This is a transcript of the 9-24-06 information meeting (with commentary by James Sundquist).
UPDATE 2: Please read the important comment posted 8:25 PM, October 19, 2006 by a Deacon regarding the trip and extra money before you post any comments on this particular issue. Thanks.
posted by BBC Open Forum at 6:48 AM on Oct 19 2006
Post your thoughts and suggestions on how the committee should organize and present information. Questions that you think the committee should address can also be posted.
An ad hoc Communications Committee of 10 deacons and two staff members has been formed to address issues and answer questions from the church family. This committee was recommended by the deacon officers, approved by the Pastor, affirmed by the deacon body, and presented to the church family last Sunday (October 8th) following the evening Worship Service. This committee is currently organizing and in the near future will present information on how it will function.
If you wish to offer an opinion please remember that regardless of your point of view, you can be polite and respectful towards others.
UPDATE: This is a transcript of the 9-24-06 information meeting (with commentary by James Sundquist).
UPDATE 2: Please read the important comment posted 8:25 PM, October 19, 2006 by a Deacon regarding the trip and extra money before you post any comments on this particular issue. Thanks.
posted by BBC Open Forum at 6:48 AM on Oct 19 2006
Didn't I Tick You Guys Off?
From the original BBC Open Forum:
YouTube has the video if you missed it.
Pastor Gaines' response from the information meeting is quite long and will be posted in the comments.
If you wish to offer an opinion please remember that regardless of your point of view, you can be polite and respectful towards others.
posted by BBC Open Forum at 6:17 AM on Oct 17 2006
We were told by Brother Steve to watch the whole video so as to hear his remarks in context. So judge for yourself. Entitled Steve Gaines Resignation Service at Gardendale First Baptist Church, July 10, 2005 PM, copies are available in the Bellevue Library.
YouTube has the video if you missed it.
Pastor Gaines' response from the information meeting is quite long and will be posted in the comments.
If you wish to offer an opinion please remember that regardless of your point of view, you can be polite and respectful towards others.
posted by BBC Open Forum at 6:17 AM on Oct 17 2006
We were told by Brother Steve to watch the whole video so as to hear his remarks in context. So judge for yourself. Entitled Steve Gaines Resignation Service at Gardendale First Baptist Church, July 10, 2005 PM, copies are available in the Bellevue Library.
The Manning/Weatherwax Letters
From the original BBC Open Forum:
The Weatherwax Letter.
What do you think about it?
posted by BBC Open Forum at 3:09 PM on Oct 16 2006
To put everything in the proper context, all six exchanges between Mr. Manning and Mr. Weatherwax are here.
The Weatherwax Letter.
What do you think about it?
posted by BBC Open Forum at 3:09 PM on Oct 16 2006
To put everything in the proper context, all six exchanges between Mr. Manning and Mr. Weatherwax are here.
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