This thread has gotten too long for those who are "still stuck with dial-up," so please, if you would, go to the "New Financial Thread" above to continue the current discussion. Thanks for your cooperation!
Originally I wrote: This thread is, as the name implies, a place for announcements rather than in depth discussions.
Note regarding Richard Emerson's comment from 2:06 a.m., November 3, 2006:
Mr. Emerson wrote me this afternoon and requested I remove his comment because he'd lost his password and couldn't log in. I honored his request. However, his edited version of those comments is in letter form here.
If you have something you'd like to have included here, rather than put it in a comment in this thread, please place the information in a comment and leave it in the "Suggestion Box" thread. That way I can add links and edit as needed and post it "on the front page" in this thread.
So much for that idea. Now that there don't seem to be any announcements, at least not any that have been dropped in the Suggestion Box, I've just changed the title to reflect the fact that discussions are indeed taking place here.
That's all. Continue on now...
Tuesday, October 31, 2006
Psst! Please come in here to tell people if they don't like it to leave.
It seems there are a few people who, instead of trying to follow the topics offered for discussion, are choosing to instead make sometimes long-winded and often disparaging comments of the "if you don't like it, leave" variety. Requests to keep things civil and respectful are being ignored. Therefore, in the interest of fairness and openness, this thread is now available for anyone who wants to leave such a message. Any further messages of that flavor left in other threads will be copied and moved to this thread, and the original will be deleted.
There are some who want to come here and have legitimate, civil discussions of issues facing Bellevue and the church in general, and it's becoming increasingly difficult to do so with all the off-topic comments scattered throughout this forum. So please feel free to use this thread to offer your unsolicited advice.
Thank you in advance for your cooperation!
There are some who want to come here and have legitimate, civil discussions of issues facing Bellevue and the church in general, and it's becoming increasingly difficult to do so with all the off-topic comments scattered throughout this forum. So please feel free to use this thread to offer your unsolicited advice.
Thank you in advance for your cooperation!
Monday, October 30, 2006
What Would You Do?
Okay, here's one from the Suggestion Box...
If a respected staff member came to you with information and claimed to have documents that could hurt the office of the pastor, what would you do?
Please, try to separate the question from Mark Sharpe & Co., Dr. Gaines, and Bellevue and think in generalities.
1. Could you in good conscience keep it to yourself?
2. What steps would you take to try to resolve the issue?
3. How many months should you try to resolve the issue if there's no cooperation from the pastor?
4. Would Matthew 18 apply in a case like this? If so, and you attempted to follow Matthew 18 and got all the way to the step where you needed to take your issue before the church, how would you go about doing that?
5. What if you had a job in the secular world and a respected colleague came to you with information and documents about your boss that could hurt the company? Would you handle that situation any differently?
Again, regardless of your opinions about the current situation at Bellevue, try to think of a general situation without considering specific personalities and think about what you would do. We should all seek to know what Jesus would do, but what do you think Jesus would do?
Thanks to "eccl.7:25" for this topic suggestion.
If a respected staff member came to you with information and claimed to have documents that could hurt the office of the pastor, what would you do?
Please, try to separate the question from Mark Sharpe & Co., Dr. Gaines, and Bellevue and think in generalities.
1. Could you in good conscience keep it to yourself?
2. What steps would you take to try to resolve the issue?
3. How many months should you try to resolve the issue if there's no cooperation from the pastor?
4. Would Matthew 18 apply in a case like this? If so, and you attempted to follow Matthew 18 and got all the way to the step where you needed to take your issue before the church, how would you go about doing that?
5. What if you had a job in the secular world and a respected colleague came to you with information and documents about your boss that could hurt the company? Would you handle that situation any differently?
Again, regardless of your opinions about the current situation at Bellevue, try to think of a general situation without considering specific personalities and think about what you would do. We should all seek to know what Jesus would do, but what do you think Jesus would do?
Thanks to "eccl.7:25" for this topic suggestion.
Purpose Driven?
This seems to be a recurring theme in the comments -- that Bellevue may be moving toward a Purpose Driven model. Please comment on anything you perceive being related to the PDC movement in this thread.
1. Do you think Bellevue is moving in this direction? Why or why not? If so, does this concern you?
2. Have you read The Purpose Driven Life? If so, what did you think about it?
3. Has your Bible Fellowship Class or other group done a study of the PDL? If so, what are your thoughts about it?
4. Do you see this movement and its wide appeal across denominational lines as evidence of the "one world church" the Bible tells us will emerge in the latter days?
These are some links from my personal list, but there are many other sources for information on this topic.
Letter to editor of the Americus Times-Recorder (two pages long).
Reply to above.
Are Rick Warren's Teachings at Bellevue Baptist?
Berean's PDL Discernment Tool
Book review -- Transitioning
Church Growth Movement (multiple articles).
Change Dividing Southern Baptist Mega-Church thread pertaining to Bellevue.
Lighthouse Trails Research Project
One Man's Purpose-Driven Journal
Spirit-Led or Purpose Driven?
Part 1
Part 2
Part 3
Part 4
Part 5
Part 6
The Purpose-Driven Pastor discussion.
Transitioning an established church.
Signs of the church growth movement.
Please remember to keep your comments civil and respectful and reflective of the Christians we are. We don't have to agree, but we don't have to be disagreeable either.
1. Do you think Bellevue is moving in this direction? Why or why not? If so, does this concern you?
2. Have you read The Purpose Driven Life? If so, what did you think about it?
3. Has your Bible Fellowship Class or other group done a study of the PDL? If so, what are your thoughts about it?
4. Do you see this movement and its wide appeal across denominational lines as evidence of the "one world church" the Bible tells us will emerge in the latter days?
These are some links from my personal list, but there are many other sources for information on this topic.
Letter to editor of the Americus Times-Recorder (two pages long).
Reply to above.
Are Rick Warren's Teachings at Bellevue Baptist?
Berean's PDL Discernment Tool
Book review -- Transitioning
Church Growth Movement (multiple articles).
Change Dividing Southern Baptist Mega-Church thread pertaining to Bellevue.
Lighthouse Trails Research Project
One Man's Purpose-Driven Journal
Spirit-Led or Purpose Driven?
Part 1
Part 2
Part 3
Part 4
Part 5
Part 6
The Purpose-Driven Pastor discussion.
Transitioning an established church.
Signs of the church growth movement.
Please remember to keep your comments civil and respectful and reflective of the Christians we are. We don't have to agree, but we don't have to be disagreeable either.
Saturday, October 28, 2006
Prayer is the Key
This was placed in the Suggestion Box by "prayerwarrior." I think it deserves top billing.
"I exhort therefore, that first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks be made for all men;" I Timothy 2:1
The following prayer guide would be wonderful to use at such a time as this as we pray for Bellevue:
PRAYER FOR DIFFICULT SITUATIONS
Acknowledge God's sovereignty and praise Him.
Thank Him for guidance and the opportunity to promote healing.
What is God wanting to teach through the situation?
Ask God:
1) For the Holy Spirit to convict those who have done wrong.
2) To have the right words and attitude when talking with those involved.
3) To give you His love for the person(s) involved.
4) For humility in dealing with the problem.
5) For all involved to know the truth.
6) How to handle the situation His way and the courage to do it.
Pray against:
Blindness to sin
Denial
Defensiveness
Divisiveness
Distortion of the truth
Disunity among believers
Unwillingness to hear truth or inaccurate hearing
Cold/closed/hard hearts
Fear
Lying
Destructive protectiveness
Stubborness
Rationalization
May we all remember that prayer is the key to everything in life. Pray that God grant us strength and wisdom in this and every situation.
Another prayer to consider, this one from "1cor13"...
Dear God help us to be kind, tenderhearted, and loving with those whom we disagree with (Ephesians 4:32). Help us to be merciful with those who have wronged us (Matthew 5:7), for we know that we all deserve hell, but thankfully you don't give us what we deserve in Jesus Christ. (Romans 6:23) Help us to see clearly our own sin in a disagreement (Matthew 7:1-2), especially when passions stir our flesh. Guard our conversation that it be filled with grace and edifying to the body of Christ. (Ephesians 4:29) Keep us from demanding justice when we ourselves need new mercies each day. (Matthew 18:30) Help us to be patient with each other as you have been infinitely patient with us. Help us to not keep a record of wrongs (I Corinthians 13), as a gracious expression of love. Dear Lord, keep our disagreements with people from turning to hatred of them. (I John 3:14) For we know that Christ loves sinners so much that he shed his blood for them.
"I exhort therefore, that first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks be made for all men;" I Timothy 2:1
The following prayer guide would be wonderful to use at such a time as this as we pray for Bellevue:
PRAYER FOR DIFFICULT SITUATIONS
Acknowledge God's sovereignty and praise Him.
Thank Him for guidance and the opportunity to promote healing.
What is God wanting to teach through the situation?
Ask God:
1) For the Holy Spirit to convict those who have done wrong.
2) To have the right words and attitude when talking with those involved.
3) To give you His love for the person(s) involved.
4) For humility in dealing with the problem.
5) For all involved to know the truth.
6) How to handle the situation His way and the courage to do it.
Pray against:
Blindness to sin
Denial
Defensiveness
Divisiveness
Distortion of the truth
Disunity among believers
Unwillingness to hear truth or inaccurate hearing
Cold/closed/hard hearts
Fear
Lying
Destructive protectiveness
Stubborness
Rationalization
May we all remember that prayer is the key to everything in life. Pray that God grant us strength and wisdom in this and every situation.
Another prayer to consider, this one from "1cor13"...
Dear God help us to be kind, tenderhearted, and loving with those whom we disagree with (Ephesians 4:32). Help us to be merciful with those who have wronged us (Matthew 5:7), for we know that we all deserve hell, but thankfully you don't give us what we deserve in Jesus Christ. (Romans 6:23) Help us to see clearly our own sin in a disagreement (Matthew 7:1-2), especially when passions stir our flesh. Guard our conversation that it be filled with grace and edifying to the body of Christ. (Ephesians 4:29) Keep us from demanding justice when we ourselves need new mercies each day. (Matthew 18:30) Help us to be patient with each other as you have been infinitely patient with us. Help us to not keep a record of wrongs (I Corinthians 13), as a gracious expression of love. Dear Lord, keep our disagreements with people from turning to hatred of them. (I John 3:14) For we know that Christ loves sinners so much that he shed his blood for them.
Friday, October 27, 2006
Tithes
Some Bellevue members have stated that they're taking the money they normally would give to the church and giving it to other Christian organizations or setting it aside until things at Bellevue blow over, so to speak.
Have you changed your tithing habits because of all this? If so, and only to the extent you wish to share, to what sorts of causes are you now giving?
Have you changed your tithing habits because of all this? If so, and only to the extent you wish to share, to what sorts of causes are you now giving?
Wednesday, October 25, 2006
Financial Issues
Links to 3 articles on this subject can be found here.
A simplified definition would be the transferring of a Church asset to an insider for less than fair market value where "insiders" are defined as "pastors, ministers, board members, officers, and employees."
It is alleged impropriety of this nature that Mark Sharpe claims to have knowledge of. Specifically, he claims that current and former staff members with whom he had a close working relationship have claimed to have proof of such occurrences and have confided this information in him, but they will not come forward with that proof until the appropriate protections are in place. They reportedly have been willing to do so all along, but Dr. Gaines and other staff members have refused to meet with them under these conditions.
1. Should Mark Sharpe and these individuals be granted the opportunity to present any evidence they might have with the protections requested in place?
2. Should a preacher and other staff have church credit cards? Why or why not? Should there be accountability to the membership for the use of these cards? Should the receipts be available for review at any time? What if there are allegations of misuse? Who should be able to review them?
3. Use of a church credit card for personal expenditures, even when those charges are reimbursed to the church, is considered "co-mingling of funds." Aside from any legal ramifications, is this proper?
4. The more openness and transparency there is by the staff regarding the stewardship of money, the fewer questions there will be. How much transparency do you think is necessary?
Use this thread to discuss any matters related to financial concerns at Bellevue.
A simplified definition would be the transferring of a Church asset to an insider for less than fair market value where "insiders" are defined as "pastors, ministers, board members, officers, and employees."
It is alleged impropriety of this nature that Mark Sharpe claims to have knowledge of. Specifically, he claims that current and former staff members with whom he had a close working relationship have claimed to have proof of such occurrences and have confided this information in him, but they will not come forward with that proof until the appropriate protections are in place. They reportedly have been willing to do so all along, but Dr. Gaines and other staff members have refused to meet with them under these conditions.
1. Should Mark Sharpe and these individuals be granted the opportunity to present any evidence they might have with the protections requested in place?
2. Should a preacher and other staff have church credit cards? Why or why not? Should there be accountability to the membership for the use of these cards? Should the receipts be available for review at any time? What if there are allegations of misuse? Who should be able to review them?
3. Use of a church credit card for personal expenditures, even when those charges are reimbursed to the church, is considered "co-mingling of funds." Aside from any legal ramifications, is this proper?
4. The more openness and transparency there is by the staff regarding the stewardship of money, the fewer questions there will be. How much transparency do you think is necessary?
Use this thread to discuss any matters related to financial concerns at Bellevue.
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